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Frank J Casella

1 Year Ago

Article: Ban Spying On The Internet

"For years, Big Tech has tried to speak for us. They tell anyone who will listen that we all want our data to be collected, so we can get “relevant ads”. At the same time, they have told us that, without the right to collect and harness our data, they couldn’t provide us with quality technology for free. Sadly, over time, they have managed to convince many people to accept this false bargain."

https://banspying.org/



Photo: Golden Hour Sunset on the Prairie - Copyright 2022 Frank J Caslla

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Bill Swartwout

1 Year Ago

False bargain? Someone has to pay for the development and implementation of the technology we enjoy. The alternative could very well be a subscription model. Isn't that what we have with (commercial) television? And don't say that TV viewers are not tracked and profiled.

 

Chuck De La Rosa

1 Year Ago

Given the choice, people seem to choose the "free" version of things even when they know full well that it's collecting data as part of the bargain.

What's interesting to me is that they are inferring it could be free even without the data collection. Nope, not even close. As Bill said, there is a high cost to development and implementation. People got to eat, no one will write code or support infrastructure for free.

This reminds of when I was working for a bank. People demand all sorts of free services, especially ATMs. To keep customers they do make it free. But ATMs cost a fortune for banks to manage and run. So they tack fees on in other places.

You are going to pay for it one way or the other.

 

Floyd Snyder

1 Year Ago

"false bargin"

Is that kind of like people that bitch about Facebook, Twitter, and SM, in general, trying to sell them ads and getting all bent out of shape for it? Like they are "entitled" to advertise for free on someone else's investment.

I don't see anything false about it. I see it as totally bizarre! People that what to "SELL" a product, thinking they are entitled to free advertising, and how dare you to suggest they should maybe consider buying an ad!! lol

 

Frank J Casella

1 Year Ago

What you guy's are saying is old school thinking .. or is there something I don't get here?



"If we can create a third place on the internet that doesn’t have an advertising model — you might have seen that we just launched an ad-free upgrade for Tumblr. Twitter and Facebook never do that because their business models don’t allow them to. But, luckily, since Tumblr isn’t making very much money right now, we can afford to do that and make it the model. I think that’s pretty cool. We have a really decent chance to bootstrap a non-surveillance-capitalism-based social network, which I think is impossible for the incumbents right now. They just have the golden handcuffs."
https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/15/22977857/wordpress-tumblr-simplenote-internet-automattic-matt-mullenweg-interview
Matt Mullenweg, CEO, AuttomMattic: WordPress, Tumblr

"Bottom Line: It is a false myth that our data is what we have to give up to have a great social media experience. At MeWe our members are customers to serve, not data or products to sell or target. That’s why we use the covered eye image and the hashtag #Not4Sale!"
https://mewe.com/faq

What’s Vivaldi’s business model?
Browsers have different sources of income. Some use your data in ad networks, push promoted content or use other invasive methods to fund their development. We don’t. Here’s how we make the money we need to keep doing what we’re doing.
https://vivaldi.com/blog/vivaldi-business-model/

 

Floyd Snyder

1 Year Ago

Facebook users 2.93 Billion

Tumbler (It is ad-free buy you have to subscribe) 312 million.

MeWe users 20 million.

You get what you pay for.

Tumbler is not my market. "61% of its new users, and nearly half of its active users, are under 24."

 

Ed Taylor

1 Year Ago

You could always do the smart thing and get off social media if you don't want to be tracked. I'm not a fan of it but I do accept the fact it goes on.

 

Floyd Snyder

1 Year Ago

To be honest with you, I have no problems with being tracked.

I am not up to anything that I am ashamed of or, shouldn't be doing.

I do hate the spam emails but it is just a price of doing business on the Internet.

 

Abbie Shores

1 Year Ago

Oh ! not tracking threads AGAIN!

 

Doug Swanson

1 Year Ago

It would be interesting if Facebook, the 8,000,000 pound gorilla in the room, offered an ad-free version that you paid for. My hypothetical version would have all of the current features except no ads at all. Advertisers could create accounts and push products, but they'd only show on my feed if I "Friend" them. Otherwise, they might not even exist for me.

My hypothetical question is about how much they'd have to charge to keep stockholders happy and insure that Zuckerberg still could buy all the private islands he wants. I wonder how many would be willing to pay.

The tracking part is of low consequence or concern to me. I assume that I'm being tracked and, surprisingly, there's not really much I do on FB that I don't want the world, the FBI, my wife and my pastor to see, so go ahead and track.

I must be pretty good at befuddling FB's tracking and ad targeting because it's amazing to me just how wrong their ad choices are. If this is spying, they are not finding the secret rocket plans. I'm really fairly sure that I've never bought anything because of a FB ad, so they might do better if I paid a hundred bucks a year for an ad-free version.

So, how much would YOU pay for an ad-free social media experience?

 

David Bridburg

1 Year Ago

For all the "documenting" we are supposed to be doing now in the forum we need some quality resources not blogs or errant nutcases with made up facts and accusations.

JMO

Perhaps this is just all too much of a can of worms for an art focused forum. One or two stray comments without links is easier than entire threads with just stuff.

I am drawn like a moth to the flame in these threads. So are others. JMO there are major political themes involved in this stuff stateside.

 

Frank J Casella

1 Year Ago

"Perhaps this is just all too much of a can of worms for an art focused forum"

This is absolutely about the business of Art .. we have to watch this stuff so that we learn how to make sure people see our stuff through all the webs of the internets.

 

David Bridburg

1 Year Ago

Frank it is what it is. It wont really change. We all know it. Mostly all.

Our art works with it or not. That might change. Meaning the art I produce. It is the times we live in.

The bottom line for me only, if I see an ad for a product I decide if I will buy it or not. If I can not use it I more often than not wont buy it. What FB did to get it in front of me is no different than a billboard on my local stretch of highway.

 

David Bridburg

1 Year Ago

Frank,

Just posted here in the forum on a major machine learning security problem.

FB and others are depending on AI to cut their costs in several regards. Or to make them money in other regards. It seems machine learning for now is totally unsecured. That is an impossible situation. Expect major changes.

 

Floyd Snyder

1 Year Ago

I don't get what all the big to-do is about the ads on SM. I just ignore them like I do when I read a newspaper or watch TV.

I don't get it that people can't see where the investors in SM need to pay their bills and make a profit.

Sure they're annoying, some more so than others. But life is like that now, isn't it? I can think of a hell of a lot more annoying things about life than the ads on SM.

Like not being about to six the 8-10 footers on the 18th like I used to... and not clearing the water from the blue tees like I used when I was 20 years younger. Now, these are the important things that are really annoying.

 

Abbie Shores

1 Year Ago

David,

For all the "documenting" we are supposed to be doing now in the forum we need some quality resources not blogs or errant nutcases with made up facts and accusations.

JMO

Perhaps this is just all too much of a can of worms for an art focused forum. One or two stray comments without links is easier than entire threads with just stuff.



Frank had documented all links. Other posts were relevant to those links and to clearly stated personal opinion. If you do not want to share sources, and you're stating as facts not opinions, don't respond. If you do respond with a fact, share your source. It's very simple. It allows others to make an informed decision about what you've said, and stops people throwing what they believe are facts around left, right, and centre, with no validity.

If you don't like the sources, find your own, or stop complaining



 

David Bridburg

1 Year Ago

Abbie,

Like I mentioned we are all like moths to the flames with this stuff. I have more valuable things to do. Going on about not using SM when the people are not using SM is not constructive of my time. People can judge the blogs without my digging up actual facts for them.

I will spend less time on this. But the moth in me comes and goes.

 

Abbie Shores

1 Year Ago

David, please read the rules again. Especially 18

Thank you

 

Frank J Casella

1 Year Ago

Thank you Abbie ..


--------------

"You could always do the smart thing and get off social media if you don't want to be tracked. I'm not a fan of it but I do accept the fact it goes on"

Agree, there are ways to use SM intentionally without much being tracked. It's for me not about being tracked, rather what they do with the information they track.

It's like when I started to drive a car, I asked my Father if I could put a radar detector in the car. He replied the best way to beat the police radar is to drive the speed limit.

"Taking a Break from Social Media Makes you Happier and Less Anxious"
https://www.calnewport.com/blog/2022/05/16/taking-a-break-from-social-media-makes-you-happier-and-less-anxious/

 

Floyd Snyder

1 Year Ago

" errant nutcases with made up facts and accusations."

Well, that eliminated most of what passes for modern journalism these days. 😁

 

Drew

1 Year Ago

Cheers to good source requirements and the effort to stop misleading opinion under the guise of fact!
My hatz off to management!

 

David Bridburg

1 Year Ago

Ditto Floyd, LOL, I am following my own Rule 35c.....don't worry.....

 

Gary Whitton

1 Year Ago

Sadly, at a most basic level big tech must capture and log a person's IP, and where they went during a visit. This will never go away, and if someone tries to prevent them, Big Tech will simply shut down the whole enchilada. The most basic need is security, the second need is revenue development. Without security and a way to make money, none of these companies have any incentive to provide us anything.

If you can't get passed the paranoia, there are places to go, completely off grid, like Slab City in California.

 

Edward Fielding

1 Year Ago

Only my own opinions here based on observation:

Using the bartering system is a good way to prevent undue surveillance.

Cash transactions are probably second.

Although be wary of security cameras. They are everywhere. Take a shortcut through someone's yard and you might become the talk of the moment on the local Facebook group.

Wear pink shorts to a pinball show and end up being discussed on a collector's forum.

Drive erratically and end up in a dash cam video on YouTube.

 

Chad Meyer

1 Year Ago

Is there data that supports their statement that targeted ads influence our choices and opinions?

I'm not sure the Betty Crocker cupcake ads I get are going to change anything

I really don't have an issue with the internet spying because there are a lot of bad people out there

 

Doug Swanson

1 Year Ago

The interesting question on this is, just WHAT is spying? Any time you or I request a web page, the server that returns the page has to know where to send it, like to your computer. Even if they don't know who is sitting in front of the screen, they know the IP address of the recipient, and sometimes can identify where that comes from. It's essential to the operation....where to send the web page. There's not way to NOT give them that information if you want a web page.

The other big way of "spying" is a cookie that saves what you look for so you don't always have to go back to square one on a web site. It remembers your preferences and can remember what you did, etc. Saving your clicks is another way of "spying". All of this is information you give up, not a matter of mind-reading or hacking your computer. We give THEM this info.

The real magic of advertising is that they are just using the information they get from your clicking habits to target advertising. Like I noted before, I must be a hard nut to crack because the ads I get are so bad and off target. The key thing is to remember that YOU are giving them this information. Like yelling in the town square, don't say it if you don't want someone to hear it. All of this data gathering is a matter of you giving it to them. Once you click on their servers, it's their information and they can use it.

Prior to my current life, I was one of the guys behind the server wall in a government agency. You would be astonished to know how much we knew, stuff that people just gave away to us. Fortunately, we were the good guys and were very careful, but yeah, that's the scary part of all this. You do need to be aware of what you give away on line. I don't think there's really any way to pass a law about that, especially with the global nature of these systems.

 

Chuck De La Rosa

1 Year Ago

"What you guy's are saying is old school thinking .. or is there something I don't get here?"

Nothing I said is old school. It's historical and it human nature. People want things as cheap as they can get them. It's why Wal-mart is so successful. Everyone hates Walmart. Dozens of articles over the years about how they impacted small towns. Yet they thrive. I hold no illusions that the general public is going to change their habits and abandon the big SM sites, or anything else they can get for free in exchange for their data.

I'm not saying the alternatives you linked to are not good business models, or that they will fail. I'm saying they will never rival FB or Twitter despite the benefits they offer.

Here's an interesting statement from Vivaldi; "Vivaldi generates revenue from partner deals with search engines". Um yeah, that's how everyone gets paid. It's tracking. Maybe Vivaldi isn't, but their partners are.

MeWe probably has one of the best chances at becoming relevant in that they could become a household word like FB. But I'm thinking they are cash strapped right now. They are private are in that stage many startups find themselves in. Super fast growth and bleeding money to keep up. When or if they are ready to go public, they may do well, but then will be accountable to shareholders. That's where it all falls apart. Shareholders demand results. Those demands force management to change their business models. Still, MeWe is worth keeping an eye on.

https://www.axios.com/2021/07/13/mewe-expansion-fundraise

 

Frank J Casella

1 Year Ago

Doug and Chuck, thank you for your input .. great stuff to chew on!!

"Here's an interesting statement from Vivaldi; "Vivaldi generates revenue from partner deals with search engines". Um yeah, that's how everyone gets paid. It's tracking. Maybe Vivaldi isn't, but their partners are."

The way I understand it, they get revenue from you using the search engine, but they don't track what you are searching .. that is the difference.

"Why aren't you selling all my personal data to the highest bidder?

Do you like being subconsciously manipulated into doing things you wouldn't have done otherwise? No, you say! That's what we thought and that's why we don't partake in such activities. Here's what we do instead."

https://vivaldi.com/privacy/browser/

"MeWe probably has one of the best chances at becoming relevant in that they could become a household word like FB. But I'm thinking they are cash strapped right now. They are private are in that stage many startups find themselves in. "

Yes, I recently heard they are profitable .. and being on the platform is more busy than ever.

I recall the Founder talking about it on this podcast https://www.komando.com/episode/inside-social-media-surveillance-with-the-founder-of-mewe/812269/

Also, another about tracking https://twitter.com/kimkomando/status/1448741349222608899?s=20&t=oTIL9WuFSZ3KUZXzdveOWg


 

Chuck De La Rosa

1 Year Ago

I think you missed what I was saying, Vivaldi may not be tracking, but what is the search engine doing with it? They aren't giving away search results for free.

 

Bill Swartwout

1 Year Ago

Chuck, those are exactly my thoughts.

I have a couple of old travel sites (from back in 1999) that I have been recently resurrecting. Part of my revenue is from from a hotel affiliate program and part of it is from showing Google Ads (via their AdSense Program). I do absolutely zero tracing on any of my sites but I've got to believe google tracks anyone who may click on a google ad (Maryland Steamed Crabs example). I also have a "Search Page" on that same site that is powered by Google (Search Page example) and you "just gotta believe" they track users on there. I get a revenue check from Goog every month (since January, 2014) - so you know that they know what they are doing. LOL

 

Doug Swanson

1 Year Ago

Google saves everything....search terms, results and what you click on from their page. If you're logged in they know who you are, if not, they know where the request came from (that IP thing again). It's just how all this stuff works, especially searching and using something like Google as your "home base". Generally there's not much harm, but, as I said, be wary about what you give away in all this.

 

This discussion is closed.